AZ Run Dad

I like like what you did here... Very marathon specific. I've already been thinking about what workouts I'm going to be adding to the rotation for the next marathon cycle, and this is along the same lines of what I'm thinking. 20 mile runs with big chunks at marathon pace. Curious about what else you have planned as the big marathon specific sessions?

Jake: Besides two half marathons I have done this workout twice now. First one was about 5 weeks ago and a little slower (target was 18 for 3 miles and was more like 17:45). Next weekend I'll do 2x5 MP miles and then I also have a 5x2 MP on the schedule. I also have a shorter long run (16) with 10 at MP. I really like these runs and I think it mimics the feeling of a marathon well. The key is to build in enough recovery afterward. My stress days are usually T,TH,Su but since I did this Sat I will have two easy days before anything hard again. Had I done it today I wouldn't have gone hard until Wed. I can feel it today for sure. I'm doing more of these type of long runs than ever and I think its the right thing. I love talking about this stuff and would love to hear your ideas. I think the next step on the workout I did would be 4 x 4 mile and then 3 x 5. Those would be good too. I think its also better to not go to slow on the recovery mile. It keeps it honest.

I like the 2x5, that's one of my favorites. Really there are countless iterations. I also like the 4-3-2-1 (especially when you have a half coming up b/c you can crank the 2-1 part of it) and I'm even thinking next time around, something like 5-4-3-2-1 has a place - as long as you run the 5 a little slower than goal MP and build in enough recovery days afterwards.

In my opinion the 10-12 mile tempos are bread and butter. I went up to 16 miles before Boston and I think there's a fine line with that one... it can be beneficial but its also mentally exhausting if you are doing it solo. Doing to 10 @ MP on the back end of a medium-long run is a very good idea.

Great workout Derek and great discussion going on here. I know I'm adding alot more marathon paced miles in my next buildup to a marathon. I had lots of threshold miles but hardly any actual marathon pace miles and I think it cost me at St. George.

I think its really the key - do as much running specific to marathon pace/effort as possible in the last 6-8 weeks.

I'm going to approach my next marathon by starting w/ the shorter, faster workouts EARLY, be in decent 10K/Half shape 6-8 weeks out, then shift the focus to workouts that are very specific to the marathon. I think that is especially important when you struggle a bit w/ fueling and energy use (like I do). You have to get super-efficient @ MP.

Jake: I believe you are right on with your last comment. That's kind of what I've done this time. Was in 5k PR shape from some fast workouts while still doing 18-20 mile runs. My intervals are slowing down and becoming more strength workouts and the long runs are ramping up. I believe it's important to practice running MP when already tired. The better your body can burn fat the better you will be able to hang in there when the going gets tough. I almost like it when I'm really tired and have another set of 3 miles to go because I know that's a great stimulus. I would out MP on the back end of long runs whenever possible to simulate that pace when already fatigued. Great discussion and thoughts guys!

You're spot on Derek. Its all about teaching the body to burn fuel (fat) efficiently @ MP when tired. I think a mistake some guys make (and this is just my opinion) is doing too much running faster than MP in the last 2-3 weeks, when you start to feel fresh and good. Then you go right back into teaching your body that its OK to use energy inefficiently again.

In the last couple months, I feel like I've learned so much about the marathon. I can't wait to test it out again. But you're doing things very similar to how I will be, so I'm using you as a case study :-)

That's why the marathon is so intriguing. Very few have "figured it out" and we have to explore our limits to do so. I think both of you guys have breakthroughs coming and maybe discussions like this will help.

Yeah and that's kind of what Canova does with his athletes right? Does faster stuff early on and then gets more marathon specific.

I was talking to Ben the other day and told him in college with did 15 miles at 6:00 or slightly faster every Saturday and that was training for only a 10k or shorter race. And he was like, "Well why don't you do that now?"

I said, "Exactly, we've let our long runs get too slow. They have to be near marathon pace to build the aerobic engine."

Riley: Canova has his athletes do huge workouts but they don't go hard again until completely ready. I'm experimenting with this a little by taking an extra day after some of the harder long runs. However I'm not a pro and have a job and kids which makes me stick to more of a schedule. The thinking is extremely sound though.

The Canova stuff is great. But it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. He is working w/ athletes who can run 2:06 and want to get down to 2:04. I think guys like us can take some of the concepts and apply it in ways that work for us, but not copy it completely.